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	<title>Comments on: NIWA loses, opts for fresh start</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: Climate Conversation Group &#187; NIWA breaks promises, should apologise</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21444</link>
		<dc:creator>Climate Conversation Group &#187; NIWA breaks promises, should apologise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21444</guid>
		<description>[...] spot the mistake? This is yet another example of slippery communication from NIWA. If you&#8217;re following the story here, you&#8217;ll remember they got really angry that the Coalition didn&#8217;t construct their own [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] spot the mistake? This is yet another example of slippery communication from NIWA. If you&#8217;re following the story here, you&#8217;ll remember they got really angry that the Coalition didn&#8217;t construct their own [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21264</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 03:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21264</guid>
		<description>Ken,

If you&#039;re taking a national average using separate stations what is the point in homogenising local subregions first, e.g. for a site relocation?  Or, if you&#039;re trying to determine global trends by measuring winds off the ocean wouldn&#039;t it be better to always measure on the windward coast?  How do you decide what makes any one location or regional sub-grouping any more or less relevant in determining a national or a global trend?

If it was to determine the temperature of a particular region, e.g. Wellington, then using NIWA&#039;s homogenisation formula would be appropriate.  But, that&#039;s the only time.  This business of gridding land areas and giving equal weight to equal area regardless of the number of thermometers actually present there seems dubious at best.  So ripe for errors or manipulation.

Local variations are unpredictable and change with time.  For example Hokitika South is 0.3C cooler than Hokitika Airport despite being at less elevation.

And if you&#039;re going to talk about making adjustments at individual stations, wouldn&#039;t the urban heat island effect tend to increase temperature with time?  The raw figures show a flat trend nationally.  Therefore, if the UHI effect is in existence it is masking a cooling trend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken,</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re taking a national average using separate stations what is the point in homogenising local subregions first, e.g. for a site relocation?  Or, if you&#8217;re trying to determine global trends by measuring winds off the ocean wouldn&#8217;t it be better to always measure on the windward coast?  How do you decide what makes any one location or regional sub-grouping any more or less relevant in determining a national or a global trend?</p>
<p>If it was to determine the temperature of a particular region, e.g. Wellington, then using NIWA&#8217;s homogenisation formula would be appropriate.  But, that&#8217;s the only time.  This business of gridding land areas and giving equal weight to equal area regardless of the number of thermometers actually present there seems dubious at best.  So ripe for errors or manipulation.</p>
<p>Local variations are unpredictable and change with time.  For example Hokitika South is 0.3C cooler than Hokitika Airport despite being at less elevation.</p>
<p>And if you&#8217;re going to talk about making adjustments at individual stations, wouldn&#8217;t the urban heat island effect tend to increase temperature with time?  The raw figures show a flat trend nationally.  Therefore, if the UHI effect is in existence it is masking a cooling trend.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21240</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 21:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21240</guid>
		<description>How is some sort of weird journalism relevant to the Copenhagen Conference. it was clearly not an IPCC conference. That is definitely not the role of the IPCC.

Am I wrong?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How is some sort of weird journalism relevant to the Copenhagen Conference. it was clearly not an IPCC conference. That is definitely not the role of the IPCC.</p>
<p>Am I wrong?</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Brill</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21230</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Brill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21230</guid>
		<description>Ken - You may be interested in the following comment on the IPCC, appearing in today&#039;s WSJ: 

Yesterday London&#039;s Guardian, a left-wing paper that has long been squarely in the global-warmist camp, carried a damning report titled &quot;How to Reform the IPCC&quot;:

    The IPCC says its reports are policy relevant, but not policy prescriptive. Perhaps unknown to many people, the process is started and finished not by scientists but by political officials, who steer the way the information is presented in so-called summary for policymakers [SPM] chapters. Is that right, the Guardian asked?

    &quot;The Nobel prize was for peace not science . . . government employees will use it to negotiate changes and a redistribution of resources. It is not a scientific analysis of climate change,&quot; said Anton Imeson, a former IPCC lead author from the Netherlands. &quot;For the media, the IPCC assessments have become an icon for something they are not...  The IPCC should have never allowed itself to be branded as a scientific organisation. It provides a review of published scientific papers but none of this is much controlled by independent scientists.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken &#8211; You may be interested in the following comment on the IPCC, appearing in today&#8217;s WSJ: </p>
<p>Yesterday London&#8217;s Guardian, a left-wing paper that has long been squarely in the global-warmist camp, carried a damning report titled &#8220;How to Reform the IPCC&#8221;:</p>
<p>    The IPCC says its reports are policy relevant, but not policy prescriptive. Perhaps unknown to many people, the process is started and finished not by scientists but by political officials, who steer the way the information is presented in so-called summary for policymakers [SPM] chapters. Is that right, the Guardian asked?</p>
<p>    &#8220;The Nobel prize was for peace not science . . . government employees will use it to negotiate changes and a redistribution of resources. It is not a scientific analysis of climate change,&#8221; said Anton Imeson, a former IPCC lead author from the Netherlands. &#8220;For the media, the IPCC assessments have become an icon for something they are not&#8230;  The IPCC should have never allowed itself to be branded as a scientific organisation. It provides a review of published scientific papers but none of this is much controlled by independent scientists.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21229</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21229</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Barry. This could be significant. I agree they shouldn&#039;t be picking the inquiry team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Barry. This could be significant. I agree they shouldn&#8217;t be picking the inquiry team.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21226</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21226</guid>
		<description>Barry - the Copenahgen conference was not an IPCC conference. That&#039;s not the IPCC&#039;s role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry &#8211; the Copenahgen conference was not an IPCC conference. That&#8217;s not the IPCC&#8217;s role.</p>
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		<title>By: barry</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21224</link>
		<dc:creator>barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21224</guid>
		<description>from the Times On Line (not the same story as this morning though)
see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7023520.ece
dated Feb 12, 2010.

In part...
&quot;...................The University of East Anglia announced yesterday a second inquiry that would investigate the validity of the CRU’s reports, which present evidence that man-made emissions are causing global warming. 

The decision to hold a second inquiry is an admission that Sir Muir’s investigation will not be sufficient to restore trust in claims that the world is at grave risk from rising temperatures. The university is one of Britain’s leading research centres on climate change and helps to compile the global temperature record published by the Met Office. 

This record is used by the Government to justify its targets for heavy cuts in carbon emissions. 

The Royal Society, a fellowship of leading scientists, has agreed to help the university to choose the team that will conduct the new inquiry. However, the university itself will have the final decision on who is selected. It pledged that the members would have “the requisite expertise, standing and independence”. ...................


Mmmmm . they select their own investigators.................. doesnt sound right..

Its interesting that the big conference was held in Copenhagen............As the bard himself said - &quot;theres something rotten in the state of Denmark&quot;.

Maybe holding the IPCC conference was one of the worlds great Freudian slips maybe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>from the Times On Line (not the same story as this morning though)<br />
see <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7023520.ece" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7023520.ece</a><br />
dated Feb 12, 2010.</p>
<p>In part&#8230;<br />
&#8220;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.The University of East Anglia announced yesterday a second inquiry that would investigate the validity of the CRU’s reports, which present evidence that man-made emissions are causing global warming. </p>
<p>The decision to hold a second inquiry is an admission that Sir Muir’s investigation will not be sufficient to restore trust in claims that the world is at grave risk from rising temperatures. The university is one of Britain’s leading research centres on climate change and helps to compile the global temperature record published by the Met Office. </p>
<p>This record is used by the Government to justify its targets for heavy cuts in carbon emissions. </p>
<p>The Royal Society, a fellowship of leading scientists, has agreed to help the university to choose the team that will conduct the new inquiry. However, the university itself will have the final decision on who is selected. It pledged that the members would have “the requisite expertise, standing and independence”. &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
<p>Mmmmm . they select their own investigators&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; doesnt sound right..</p>
<p>Its interesting that the big conference was held in Copenhagen&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;As the bard himself said &#8211; &#8220;theres something rotten in the state of Denmark&#8221;.</p>
<p>Maybe holding the IPCC conference was one of the worlds great Freudian slips maybe.</p>
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		<title>By: barry</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21221</link>
		<dc:creator>barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 03:16:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21221</guid>
		<description>Richard - it was in &quot;The Times on line&quot; this morning. Its not there now (some 10 hours later) and i dont know enough about searching old pages from places like newspapers.
It was an enquiry into the systems used at the CRU. It wasnt anything about the emails nor about any conclusions the CRU had reached.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard &#8211; it was in &#8220;The Times on line&#8221; this morning. Its not there now (some 10 hours later) and i dont know enough about searching old pages from places like newspapers.<br />
It was an enquiry into the systems used at the CRU. It wasnt anything about the emails nor about any conclusions the CRU had reached.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21219</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21219</guid>
		<description>Our report and graphs remain unchallenged. Nobody has discredited them. They make a simple comparison and do it convincingly.

What&#039;s wrong with anonymity? Deal with the facts that emerge. Deal with NIWA&#039;s disgraceful behaviour.

Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our report and graphs remain unchallenged. Nobody has discredited them. They make a simple comparison and do it convincingly.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s wrong with anonymity? Deal with the facts that emerge. Deal with NIWA&#8217;s disgraceful behaviour.</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/02/niwa-loses-opts-for-fresh-start/comment-page-1/#comment-21215</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:14:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=3525#comment-21215</guid>
		<description>I guess the scientific community is certainly recognising the need to be more open and to avoid a siege mentality (although, let&#039;s face it - some of the attacks are pretty shocking). The handling of FIO requests (a relatively new requirement) is obviously the key question in the investigations.

But perhaps this coalition could also take that lesson on board.

Why should the &quot;science team&quot; behind this discredited report  and graph desire anonymity?
Why can&#039;t they face up and discuss the problems with the report and graph?
Why should they insist on using Richard as a conduit?

Gooses and ganders?
All that is highly unusual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess the scientific community is certainly recognising the need to be more open and to avoid a siege mentality (although, let&#8217;s face it &#8211; some of the attacks are pretty shocking). The handling of FIO requests (a relatively new requirement) is obviously the key question in the investigations.</p>
<p>But perhaps this coalition could also take that lesson on board.</p>
<p>Why should the &#8220;science team&#8221; behind this discredited report  and graph desire anonymity?<br />
Why can&#8217;t they face up and discuss the problems with the report and graph?<br />
Why should they insist on using Richard as a conduit?</p>
<p>Gooses and ganders?<br />
All that is highly unusual.</p>
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