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	<title>Comments on: Who wants a carbon tax?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 20 May 2012 05:18:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29517</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 21:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29517</guid>
		<description>What struck me is that all that US energy, 56.2 Quads lost, 35.2 Quads useful, goes into the atmosphere as heat.

From Wikipedia:

A quad is a unit of energy equal to 1015 (a short-scale quadrillion) BTU,[1] or 1.055 × 1018 joules (1.055 exajoules or EJ) in SI units.

The unit is used by the U.S. Department of Energy in discussing world and national energy budgets. The global primary energy production in 2004 was 446 quad, equivalent to 471 EJ. [2]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What struck me is that all that US energy, 56.2 Quads lost, 35.2 Quads useful, goes into the atmosphere as heat.</p>
<p>From Wikipedia:</p>
<p>A quad is a unit of energy equal to 1015 (a short-scale quadrillion) BTU,[1] or 1.055 × 1018 joules (1.055 exajoules or EJ) in SI units.</p>
<p>The unit is used by the U.S. Department of Energy in discussing world and national energy budgets. The global primary energy production in 2004 was 446 quad, equivalent to 471 EJ. [2]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brent</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29510</link>
		<dc:creator>Brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 20:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29510</guid>
		<description>Just thought I&#039;d let you know that Canada has just killed it&#039;s Carbon tax</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just thought I&#8217;d let you know that Canada has just killed it&#8217;s Carbon tax</p>
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		<title>By: val majkus</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29487</link>
		<dc:creator>val majkus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 09:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29487</guid>
		<description>new post at WUWT yesterday 
Constructal GDP
Posted on November 16, 2010 by Willis Eschenbach 
Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
quotes of the last paras
...
OK, call me slow. I knew that depriving the developing world of affordable energy would impede development. But I had never realized that energy use is development, that there is a thermodynamic relationship between the two. I hadn’t noticed that if a country wishes to develop, it can only develop to the extent that it has energy, and no further. Lack of energy doesn’t merely hinder or slow or delay development of poor countries as I had thought.

It puts an absolute ceiling on development.

Given the number of people in the world living on a dollar a day or so, that’s a discouraging insight in the context of the current AGW war on fossil fuel energy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>new post at WUWT yesterday<br />
Constructal GDP<br />
Posted on November 16, 2010 by Willis Eschenbach<br />
Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach<br />
quotes of the last paras<br />
&#8230;<br />
OK, call me slow. I knew that depriving the developing world of affordable energy would impede development. But I had never realized that energy use is development, that there is a thermodynamic relationship between the two. I hadn’t noticed that if a country wishes to develop, it can only develop to the extent that it has energy, and no further. Lack of energy doesn’t merely hinder or slow or delay development of poor countries as I had thought.</p>
<p>It puts an absolute ceiling on development.</p>
<p>Given the number of people in the world living on a dollar a day or so, that’s a discouraging insight in the context of the current AGW war on fossil fuel energy.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29484</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 08:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29484</guid>
		<description>Makes sense,. I could see that 12.5 was not 1/2 25 by coincidence. So that&#039; s for 3 sectors.

From the Act:

22A Transitional provision for liability to surrender units to cover emissions from activities relating to liquid fossil fuels, stationary energy, and industrial processes

      (1) This section applies to a person who—

            (a) carries out an activity listed in Part 2, Part 3, or subpart 1 of Part 4 of Schedule 3 in the period 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012; or 

            (b) is a participant in relation to an activity listed in Part 3 or 4 of Schedule 4 in the period 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012.

      (2) Despite anything in this Act, a person to whom this section applies is only liable to surrender, and may only surrender, 1 unit for each 2 whole tonnes of emissions from the activity in respect of the period referred to in subsection (1).

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0040/latest/DLM2645780.html#DLM2645780</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makes sense,. I could see that 12.5 was not 1/2 25 by coincidence. So that&#8217; s for 3 sectors.</p>
<p>From the Act:</p>
<p>22A Transitional provision for liability to surrender units to cover emissions from activities relating to liquid fossil fuels, stationary energy, and industrial processes</p>
<p>      (1) This section applies to a person who—</p>
<p>            (a) carries out an activity listed in Part 2, Part 3, or subpart 1 of Part 4 of Schedule 3 in the period 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012; or </p>
<p>            (b) is a participant in relation to an activity listed in Part 3 or 4 of Schedule 4 in the period 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012.</p>
<p>      (2) Despite anything in this Act, a person to whom this section applies is only liable to surrender, and may only surrender, 1 unit for each 2 whole tonnes of emissions from the activity in respect of the period referred to in subsection (1).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0040/latest/DLM2645780.html#DLM2645780" rel="nofollow">http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0040/latest/DLM2645780.html#DLM2645780</a></p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29481</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 07:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29481</guid>
		<description>$12.50 referenced here:

&lt;b&gt;Regulatory Impact Statement&lt;/b&gt;&lt;b&gt;
New Zealand Emissions Trading Scheme: Industrial allocation

&lt;em&gt;The Act provides for a transition phase from 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012, whereby firms are required to surrender only one emissions unit for every two tonnes of emissions. In addition, firms can purchase emissions units from the Crown at a fixed price of $25 per unit. This means the effective maximum price for each tonne of emissions during the transition phase is $12.50.&lt;/em&gt;


http://www.climatechange.govt.nz/publications/ris/ets-industrial-allocation.html&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>$12.50 referenced here:</p>
<p><b>Regulatory Impact Statement</b><b><br />
New Zealand Emissions Trading Scheme: Industrial allocation</p>
<p><em>The Act provides for a transition phase from 1 July 2010 to 31 December 2012, whereby firms are required to surrender only one emissions unit for every two tonnes of emissions. In addition, firms can purchase emissions units from the Crown at a fixed price of $25 per unit. This means the effective maximum price for each tonne of emissions during the transition phase is $12.50.</em></p>
<p><a href="http://www.climatechange.govt.nz/publications/ris/ets-industrial-allocation.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.climatechange.govt.nz/publications/ris/ets-industrial-allocation.html</a></b></p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29475</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 05:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29475</guid>
		<description>&quot;So a working forest incurs costs&quot; - this is incorrect

Post-1989 forest land is primarily exotic or indigenous forest that is established after 31 December 1989 on land that was non-forest land on 31 December 1989. For these forests:
• Owners of the forest land (or those with a registered interest in the forest on the land) may voluntarily become Participants in the ETS, and in doing so are entitled to receive NZUs for the increase in carbon stocks in their forests from 1 January 2008

Pre-1990 forest land is an area that was forest land on 31 December 1989, and that on 31 December 2007 is still forest land and is covered by predominantly exotic forest species.
For these forests:
• Landowners have no obligations under the ETS if pre-1990 forest land is not deforested (that is, if it is re-established after harvesting).
• No NZUs are earned for an increase in the carbon stock of pre-1990 forest land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So a working forest incurs costs&#8221; &#8211; this is incorrect</p>
<p>Post-1989 forest land is primarily exotic or indigenous forest that is established after 31 December 1989 on land that was non-forest land on 31 December 1989. For these forests:<br />
• Owners of the forest land (or those with a registered interest in the forest on the land) may voluntarily become Participants in the ETS, and in doing so are entitled to receive NZUs for the increase in carbon stocks in their forests from 1 January 2008</p>
<p>Pre-1990 forest land is an area that was forest land on 31 December 1989, and that on 31 December 2007 is still forest land and is covered by predominantly exotic forest species.<br />
For these forests:<br />
• Landowners have no obligations under the ETS if pre-1990 forest land is not deforested (that is, if it is re-established after harvesting).<br />
• No NZUs are earned for an increase in the carbon stock of pre-1990 forest land.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29471</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 05:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29471</guid>
		<description>To put some perspective on the position of coal in NZ, I vaguely remember doing some calcs to make a comparison between the energy equivalent of the coal mined from a Fonterra mine in the Waikato for use in their local dairy factories and the electrical energy used by the city of Hamilton.

The Fonterra coal energy was the greater figure but I can&#039;t remember for how many factories.

I&#039;ve still got the report somewhere if anyone wants to fact check.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To put some perspective on the position of coal in NZ, I vaguely remember doing some calcs to make a comparison between the energy equivalent of the coal mined from a Fonterra mine in the Waikato for use in their local dairy factories and the electrical energy used by the city of Hamilton.</p>
<p>The Fonterra coal energy was the greater figure but I can&#8217;t remember for how many factories.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve still got the report somewhere if anyone wants to fact check.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29468</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 05:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29468</guid>
		<description>Distracted by trolling at HT. Managed to ruffle both Bryan&#039;s and Gareth&#039;s feathers. It&#039;s been a good day. 

Bryan first says “The science is not difficult to comprehend”. then when challenged pleads:

&quot;You know perfectly well I make no claim to be a scientist and I won’t be making the comment you invite. But the Real Climate Wiki indicates that there’s nothing in what you provide to alter my lay understanding of the science.&#039;

Gareth spat the dummy;

http://hot-topic.co.nz/clutching-at-straws/#comment-20623

Back On Topic

I don&#039;t think the Southland Times article from last year has their facts right. The Oct 2010 ETS Forestry Guide has this:

The primary unit of trade in the ETS is the New Zealand Unit (NZU). One NZU represents one tonne of carbon dioxide (CO2) either released to the atmosphere (emissions) or removed from the atmosphere (removals). The Government issues NZUs for increases in the carbon stocks in Kyoto-compliant forests and these may be held, or bought and sold, within New Zealand  [or converted for overseas sale]

If a Participant does not have sufficient units, they are required to buy additional units for surrender. During a transition period that applies until 31 December 2012, Participants in the forestry sector can pay cash at a fixed rate of $25 per NZU as an alternative to surrendering units.

The $25 per NZU is compatible with the shipping rate above. I searched for $12.50 in the pdf and no occurrence.

The European spot price is EU14.89 (about NZ$26 before brokerage).

http://www.eex.com/en

But I don&#039;t think those &quot;Emission Rights&quot; are a 1:1 conversion with NZU&#039;s.

Even so, NZ$25 is nowhere near the C$200 tax proposal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Distracted by trolling at HT. Managed to ruffle both Bryan&#8217;s and Gareth&#8217;s feathers. It&#8217;s been a good day. </p>
<p>Bryan first says “The science is not difficult to comprehend”. then when challenged pleads:</p>
<p>&#8220;You know perfectly well I make no claim to be a scientist and I won’t be making the comment you invite. But the Real Climate Wiki indicates that there’s nothing in what you provide to alter my lay understanding of the science.&#8217;</p>
<p>Gareth spat the dummy;</p>
<p><a href="http://hot-topic.co.nz/clutching-at-straws/#comment-20623" rel="nofollow">http://hot-topic.co.nz/clutching-at-straws/#comment-20623</a></p>
<p>Back On Topic</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the Southland Times article from last year has their facts right. The Oct 2010 ETS Forestry Guide has this:</p>
<p>The primary unit of trade in the ETS is the New Zealand Unit (NZU). One NZU represents one tonne of carbon dioxide (CO2) either released to the atmosphere (emissions) or removed from the atmosphere (removals). The Government issues NZUs for increases in the carbon stocks in Kyoto-compliant forests and these may be held, or bought and sold, within New Zealand  [or converted for overseas sale]</p>
<p>If a Participant does not have sufficient units, they are required to buy additional units for surrender. During a transition period that applies until 31 December 2012, Participants in the forestry sector can pay cash at a fixed rate of $25 per NZU as an alternative to surrendering units.</p>
<p>The $25 per NZU is compatible with the shipping rate above. I searched for $12.50 in the pdf and no occurrence.</p>
<p>The European spot price is EU14.89 (about NZ$26 before brokerage).</p>
<p><a href="http://www.eex.com/en" rel="nofollow">http://www.eex.com/en</a></p>
<p>But I don&#8217;t think those &#8220;Emission Rights&#8221; are a 1:1 conversion with NZU&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Even so, NZ$25 is nowhere near the C$200 tax proposal.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29464</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 04:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29464</guid>
		<description>Just Googled &quot;ETS $12.50&quot;

e.g

&lt;em&gt;Foresters accumulating credits have the option of either selling their credits on the ETS or accepting $12.50 per tonne of carbon from the government. &quot;Foresters can take the $12.50 or sell their credits overseas on the spot market. They can still do that under the amended scheme. The spot market is paying $28 and climbing. Therefore they&#039;d be silly to sell in NZ at a set market price of $12.50. But every credit sold overseas by a NZ forest is a credit the government cannot claim in its emissions inventory.

&quot;If I was a forester I&#039;d be holding off to 2015 because carbon credit prices will go sky high. Our carbon credits will carry a gold-plated premium.&quot; &lt;/em&gt;


http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/business/national-farm/3011135/Farming-ETS-shows-biggest-change-of-all-trading-sectors

I smell a bubble that has already popped</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just Googled &#8220;ETS $12.50&#8243;</p>
<p>e.g</p>
<p><em>Foresters accumulating credits have the option of either selling their credits on the ETS or accepting $12.50 per tonne of carbon from the government. &#8220;Foresters can take the $12.50 or sell their credits overseas on the spot market. They can still do that under the amended scheme. The spot market is paying $28 and climbing. Therefore they&#8217;d be silly to sell in NZ at a set market price of $12.50. But every credit sold overseas by a NZ forest is a credit the government cannot claim in its emissions inventory.</p>
<p>&#8220;If I was a forester I&#8217;d be holding off to 2015 because carbon credit prices will go sky high. Our carbon credits will carry a gold-plated premium.&#8221; </em></p>
<p><a href="http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/business/national-farm/3011135/Farming-ETS-shows-biggest-change-of-all-trading-sectors" rel="nofollow">http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/business/national-farm/3011135/Farming-ETS-shows-biggest-change-of-all-trading-sectors</a></p>
<p>I smell a bubble that has already popped</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2010/11/who-wants-a-carbon-tax/comment-page-1/#comment-29462</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Nov 2010 03:38:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=7560#comment-29462</guid>
		<description>This guide gives an easy overview:-

Forestry in the Emissions Trading Scheme

http://www.maf.govt.nz/sustainable-forestry/2010-ets-guide.pdf

Basically forest owners can sell their credits (NZ$25 per NZU) but they have to pay that unit for deforestation. So a working forest incurs costs but a forester or farmer that plants marginal land and doesn&#039;t fell the trees earns credits.

Whether they can find a market with willing buyers at $25 over the long term remains to be seen. We know one market has gone belly up after trading around 60c and last trade $3.41.

Richard T must have insider knowledge because he&#039;s touting $50 /sarc</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This guide gives an easy overview:-</p>
<p>Forestry in the Emissions Trading Scheme</p>
<p><a href="http://www.maf.govt.nz/sustainable-forestry/2010-ets-guide.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.maf.govt.nz/sustainable-forestry/2010-ets-guide.pdf</a></p>
<p>Basically forest owners can sell their credits (NZ$25 per NZU) but they have to pay that unit for deforestation. So a working forest incurs costs but a forester or farmer that plants marginal land and doesn&#8217;t fell the trees earns credits.</p>
<p>Whether they can find a market with willing buyers at $25 over the long term remains to be seen. We know one market has gone belly up after trading around 60c and last trade $3.41.</p>
<p>Richard T must have insider knowledge because he&#8217;s touting $50 /sarc</p>
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