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	<title>Comments on: Nothing random about NIWA</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: Australis</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-41621</link>
		<dc:creator>Australis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Feb 2011 08:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-41621</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a very good point about step-changes. Pre-smoothing, the graph should jerk up and down as site changes occurred at random intervals for a host of different reasons.

The most obvious reason for a long continuous warming curve would be UHI at several stations. Hessell refers to an &quot;urbanisation index&quot;, which suggests that urban stations can be expected to warm in logarithmic proportion to population growth. As urban effects have been measured in towns with population as low as 2,000, virtually all of the 7SS stations have probably been affected. (Perhaps Lincoln could be classed as &quot;rural&quot; – although it is only 15km from a major metro area).

The other cause of warming trends (as opposed to step-changes) is growth of foliage which shelters the thermometer site. This issue is singled out for mention in metadata relating to Auckland, Wellington, Lincoln and Dunedin and obviously can&#039;t be ignored.

Both of these factors are artifacts of the measuring system, and have nothing to do with any general NZ warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a very good point about step-changes. Pre-smoothing, the graph should jerk up and down as site changes occurred at random intervals for a host of different reasons.</p>
<p>The most obvious reason for a long continuous warming curve would be UHI at several stations. Hessell refers to an &#8220;urbanisation index&#8221;, which suggests that urban stations can be expected to warm in logarithmic proportion to population growth. As urban effects have been measured in towns with population as low as 2,000, virtually all of the 7SS stations have probably been affected. (Perhaps Lincoln could be classed as &#8220;rural&#8221; – although it is only 15km from a major metro area).</p>
<p>The other cause of warming trends (as opposed to step-changes) is growth of foliage which shelters the thermometer site. This issue is singled out for mention in metadata relating to Auckland, Wellington, Lincoln and Dunedin and obviously can&#8217;t be ignored.</p>
<p>Both of these factors are artifacts of the measuring system, and have nothing to do with any general NZ warming.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-41584</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Feb 2011 02:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-41584</guid>
		<description>Doug, email me here at rscumming@gmail.com and I&#039;ll send you a Word doc report on this if you want.

Andy, I&#039;ll send you a copy.

Bob has moved on to Lincoln and Gary is looking at interpolation infill and cross-correlation issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug, email me here at <a href="mailto:rscumming@gmail.com">rscumming@gmail.com</a> and I&#8217;ll send you a Word doc report on this if you want.</p>
<p>Andy, I&#8217;ll send you a copy.</p>
<p>Bob has moved on to Lincoln and Gary is looking at interpolation infill and cross-correlation issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Proctor</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-41519</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Proctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-41519</guid>
		<description>The two adjustments I can imagine that make the older records warmer than if they were made today is time of measurement and equipment.  But neither should be linear.  If we take measurements earlier than we did - I&#039;d like to see proof - then there would be a step change.  Previous scientists (amateur or not) recognized the need to hold to a protocol such as when the temperatures were measured.  The equipment that was used may have read &quot;warm&quot; - I&#039;d like to see the data on that - but again there would be step-changes as technology is not a slowly moving thing.

The only truly slowly progressive change is for the Urban Heat Island Effect.  And that should push modern readings down, with no effect or minimal on the oldest.

All this strangeness available to those with an Excel Spreadsheet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The two adjustments I can imagine that make the older records warmer than if they were made today is time of measurement and equipment.  But neither should be linear.  If we take measurements earlier than we did &#8211; I&#8217;d like to see proof &#8211; then there would be a step change.  Previous scientists (amateur or not) recognized the need to hold to a protocol such as when the temperatures were measured.  The equipment that was used may have read &#8220;warm&#8221; &#8211; I&#8217;d like to see the data on that &#8211; but again there would be step-changes as technology is not a slowly moving thing.</p>
<p>The only truly slowly progressive change is for the Urban Heat Island Effect.  And that should push modern readings down, with no effect or minimal on the oldest.</p>
<p>All this strangeness available to those with an Excel Spreadsheet.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-39918</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 06:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-39918</guid>
		<description>Barry, the paper is published in this journal:-

Climatic Change, Volume 45, Number 2, 339-359, DOI: 10.1023/A:1005525903714

Behind a paywall here

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h90855kv473t75r3/

I don&#039;t know the details of the peer review process at that journal.

There are other NZ tree ring studies but this is the only one I could find with a link to a dataset of the results that is available at NCDC NOAA here

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/reconstructions/newzealand/nztemp_data.txt

Note that the results are for Feb - Mar. I averaged the two to enable a simple plot to apply linear trends myself, so although it is a temperature reconstruction, it does NOT say anything about trends in the abstract, that is my compilation. A citation is also required for use.

Using my method to extract the 1910-1987 trend certainly contradicts NZT7 and 7SS but I think a better comparison is with a compilation of observed NZ temperatures from 1887 rather than 1910. I&#039;m putting together a post for Richard Treadgold with more detail that everyone can address.

The IPCC cites NIWA 2005 and a 1 C rise which is actually obtained from Salinger 1995 &quot;Southwest Pacific temperatures: trends in maximum and minimum temperatures&quot; in which he compiles a 6SS 1861-1992 from observations but I can&#039;t find the data for his plots. My solution is to use data from CliFlo to concatenate to the 7SS in order to obtain a 1887-2010 series which yields trends similar to the tree ring reconstruction. I will put the full story including the IPCC-NIWA citation in the post for Richard T.

Interesting that the IPCC cites values from Salinger 1995 but the only way I can think of to reproduce his 6SS plot is to estimate the data points from his plot.

The post will include 3  plots, 

1st showing the juxtaposition of trends, my compilation of tree ring vs 7SS 1909-1987 (78 years)

2nd showing a comparison of trends, my compilation of tree ring vs my compilation of observed  1888-1987 (100 years)

3rd showing my compilation of the 1720-1987 tree ring plot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry, the paper is published in this journal:-</p>
<p>Climatic Change, Volume 45, Number 2, 339-359, DOI: 10.1023/A:1005525903714</p>
<p>Behind a paywall here</p>
<p><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/h90855kv473t75r3/" rel="nofollow">http://www.springerlink.com/content/h90855kv473t75r3/</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know the details of the peer review process at that journal.</p>
<p>There are other NZ tree ring studies but this is the only one I could find with a link to a dataset of the results that is available at NCDC NOAA here</p>
<p><a href="ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/reconstructions/newzealand/nztemp_data.txt" rel="nofollow">ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/paleo/treering/reconstructions/newzealand/nztemp_data.txt</a></p>
<p>Note that the results are for Feb &#8211; Mar. I averaged the two to enable a simple plot to apply linear trends myself, so although it is a temperature reconstruction, it does NOT say anything about trends in the abstract, that is my compilation. A citation is also required for use.</p>
<p>Using my method to extract the 1910-1987 trend certainly contradicts NZT7 and 7SS but I think a better comparison is with a compilation of observed NZ temperatures from 1887 rather than 1910. I&#8217;m putting together a post for Richard Treadgold with more detail that everyone can address.</p>
<p>The IPCC cites NIWA 2005 and a 1 C rise which is actually obtained from Salinger 1995 &#8220;Southwest Pacific temperatures: trends in maximum and minimum temperatures&#8221; in which he compiles a 6SS 1861-1992 from observations but I can&#8217;t find the data for his plots. My solution is to use data from CliFlo to concatenate to the 7SS in order to obtain a 1887-2010 series which yields trends similar to the tree ring reconstruction. I will put the full story including the IPCC-NIWA citation in the post for Richard T.</p>
<p>Interesting that the IPCC cites values from Salinger 1995 but the only way I can think of to reproduce his 6SS plot is to estimate the data points from his plot.</p>
<p>The post will include 3  plots, </p>
<p>1st showing the juxtaposition of trends, my compilation of tree ring vs 7SS 1909-1987 (78 years)</p>
<p>2nd showing a comparison of trends, my compilation of tree ring vs my compilation of observed  1888-1987 (100 years)</p>
<p>3rd showing my compilation of the 1720-1987 tree ring plot.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-39899</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 03:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-39899</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t put too much emphasis on tree rings. Matt Briggs has an excellent article just posted
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=3424

Note the comment from Mike D at the end</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t put too much emphasis on tree rings. Matt Briggs has an excellent article just posted<br />
<a href="http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=3424" rel="nofollow">http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=3424</a></p>
<p>Note the comment from Mike D at the end</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Brill</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-39896</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Brill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Feb 2011 03:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-39896</guid>
		<description>Xiong, L.; Palmer, J.G. 2000. Reconstruction of New Zealand Temperatures
Back to AD 1720 Using Libocedrus bidwillii Tree-Rings.

Richard C

Is this a peer-reviewed journal-published paper obtainable from the NOAA website? And does it discuss a study of tree rings showing that the NZ warming trend 1910-87 was only 0.24°C/century?

If so, it would appear to contradict the NZT7 (and 7SS).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xiong, L.; Palmer, J.G. 2000. Reconstruction of New Zealand Temperatures<br />
Back to AD 1720 Using Libocedrus bidwillii Tree-Rings.</p>
<p>Richard C</p>
<p>Is this a peer-reviewed journal-published paper obtainable from the NOAA website? And does it discuss a study of tree rings showing that the NZ warming trend 1910-87 was only 0.24°C/century?</p>
<p>If so, it would appear to contradict the NZT7 (and 7SS).</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-39772</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2011 23:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-39772</guid>
		<description>EMD trend from observed data 1887-2010, +0.26 C/century.

This is only 0.03 more than the Feb-Mar tree ring reconstruction for a similar period.

I extracted the EMD trend by extending the 7SS back with an average of Auckland Albert Park and Dunedin Leith Valley from CliFlo. The plot looks a little like Salingers but doesn&#039;t have the pronounced cool period about 1900 and 1890 is generally warmer than 1910 by about 0.4 C.

I really do not think the downward adjustment to early 7SS data is warranted given the CliFlo data 1887-1910.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EMD trend from observed data 1887-2010, +0.26 C/century.</p>
<p>This is only 0.03 more than the Feb-Mar tree ring reconstruction for a similar period.</p>
<p>I extracted the EMD trend by extending the 7SS back with an average of Auckland Albert Park and Dunedin Leith Valley from CliFlo. The plot looks a little like Salingers but doesn&#8217;t have the pronounced cool period about 1900 and 1890 is generally warmer than 1910 by about 0.4 C.</p>
<p>I really do not think the downward adjustment to early 7SS data is warranted given the CliFlo data 1887-1910.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-39768</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2011 23:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-39768</guid>
		<description>The two observed series are in good agreement around 1900 on closer inspection, both show a pronounced cool period about 5 years and both show 1890 and 1910 at similar and warmer levels. I misread the Salinger plot first look..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The two observed series are in good agreement around 1900 on closer inspection, both show a pronounced cool period about 5 years and both show 1890 and 1910 at similar and warmer levels. I misread the Salinger plot first look..</p>
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		<title>By: Bob D</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-39756</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:19:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-39756</guid>
		<description>Yup, pretty much what I&#039;d agree with.  The unadjusted Salinger 7SS had just less than 0.3ºC/century for the last 100 years, from memory.  This fits well with the agreed view that NZ should show warming rates similar to SH ocean trends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup, pretty much what I&#8217;d agree with.  The unadjusted Salinger 7SS had just less than 0.3ºC/century for the last 100 years, from memory.  This fits well with the agreed view that NZ should show warming rates similar to SH ocean trends.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/01/nothing-random-about-niwa/comment-page-1/#comment-39754</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=8543#comment-39754</guid>
		<description>Comparative inear trends

1910-1987, +0.24 C/century.

1888-1987, +0.23 C/century. 

1788-1987, +0.02 C/century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparative inear trends</p>
<p>1910-1987, +0.24 C/century.</p>
<p>1888-1987, +0.23 C/century. </p>
<p>1788-1987, +0.02 C/century.</p>
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