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	<title>Comments on: The uncertainties of averages</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42881</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Feb 2011 20:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42881</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve checked the &quot;principle&quot; empirically using a 1963-1983 Auckland Aero/Albert Park overlap by adding the 1976 0.65 step to the Auck Aero series and comparing the adjusted series to the Albert Park series.

Both sets correspond well so the principle seems to be valid for Auckland AA and AP.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve checked the &#8220;principle&#8221; empirically using a 1963-1983 Auckland Aero/Albert Park overlap by adding the 1976 0.65 step to the Auck Aero series and comparing the adjusted series to the Albert Park series.</p>
<p>Both sets correspond well so the principle seems to be valid for Auckland AA and AP.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42879</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42879</guid>
		<description>&quot;Should the energy in a 0.1K temperature drop in an ocean be transfered to winds moving over lands, a high cumulative energy transference will occur. Will this distort the temperature records to make us think the world is warming? I’d say so&quot;

I think you are right Doug. If the ocean gives up heat, it has to pass through the atmosphere in order to dissipate to space. The effect of that heat on the temperature of the air is far greater than the effect it had on the temperature of the ocean.

So although the ocean might be cooling, air temps will continue to stay up for some time until all the heat that the ocean gives up has passed through the atmosphere.

There&#039;s a heat-wave in WA Australia right now and if you look at the SST anomaly, there&#039;s an ocean hot spot directly off the coast of WA. The heat-wave heat has to come from somewhere, I suggest that a large amount has been given up by the ocean and is being blown across the land as you suggest. 

http://weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.gif</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Should the energy in a 0.1K temperature drop in an ocean be transfered to winds moving over lands, a high cumulative energy transference will occur. Will this distort the temperature records to make us think the world is warming? I’d say so&#8221;</p>
<p>I think you are right Doug. If the ocean gives up heat, it has to pass through the atmosphere in order to dissipate to space. The effect of that heat on the temperature of the air is far greater than the effect it had on the temperature of the ocean.</p>
<p>So although the ocean might be cooling, air temps will continue to stay up for some time until all the heat that the ocean gives up has passed through the atmosphere.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a heat-wave in WA Australia right now and if you look at the SST anomaly, there&#8217;s an ocean hot spot directly off the coast of WA. The heat-wave heat has to come from somewhere, I suggest that a large amount has been given up by the ocean and is being blown across the land as you suggest. </p>
<p><a href="http://weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.gif" rel="nofollow">http://weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.gif</a></p>
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		<title>By: Doug Proctor</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42866</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Proctor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Feb 2011 17:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42866</guid>
		<description>The global record is a proportional summed average of regions.  If we were to deconstruct the global GISTemp historical record into oceanic and non-oceanic, and then subdivide those into their component parts, we would see that only some areas are warming, while others are cooling.

I can say this with certainty as the American contiguous landmass does not show the warming of the globe.  Neither does the oceanic subdivision as the SST and, more recently, the ARGO data have lesser trends than the GISTemp.  Also, the GISTemp records are similar in trend but different in amount to the UAH and RSS satellite records.  Same goes for HadCruT.

Breaking out these different databases appears to me to show that the land records in northern Canada and Europe have a far larger high-low range than predicted/projected by AGW theory.  The thermal inertia of the oceans, being greater than that of the land or air, means that the small change in the SST data MUST be couinteracted by a very large change in the land data for the average to be what GISTemp shows it to be.  At the same time all global maps for any given year show large areas that are cooler than the reference average. Other areas must be abnormally warm for the average to survive as stated.  

What would happen to the global average if, for instance, the Arctic were to be removed from the databases?  If, without a regional hotspot, we had minimal &quot;global&quot; heating, one would suspect that the regional hotspot area, not the globe, was undergoing change.  If the hotspot moved around too much, one would suspect heat transference distorting the appearance.

As has been noted by many, the heat energy in a gram of water is larger than that of air.  The oceans are 70.1% of the area of Earth.  Should the energy in a 0.1K temperature drop in an ocean be transfered to winds moving over lands, a high cumulative energy transference will occur.  Will this distort the temperature records to make us think the world is warming?  I&#039;d say so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The global record is a proportional summed average of regions.  If we were to deconstruct the global GISTemp historical record into oceanic and non-oceanic, and then subdivide those into their component parts, we would see that only some areas are warming, while others are cooling.</p>
<p>I can say this with certainty as the American contiguous landmass does not show the warming of the globe.  Neither does the oceanic subdivision as the SST and, more recently, the ARGO data have lesser trends than the GISTemp.  Also, the GISTemp records are similar in trend but different in amount to the UAH and RSS satellite records.  Same goes for HadCruT.</p>
<p>Breaking out these different databases appears to me to show that the land records in northern Canada and Europe have a far larger high-low range than predicted/projected by AGW theory.  The thermal inertia of the oceans, being greater than that of the land or air, means that the small change in the SST data MUST be couinteracted by a very large change in the land data for the average to be what GISTemp shows it to be.  At the same time all global maps for any given year show large areas that are cooler than the reference average. Other areas must be abnormally warm for the average to survive as stated.  </p>
<p>What would happen to the global average if, for instance, the Arctic were to be removed from the databases?  If, without a regional hotspot, we had minimal &#8220;global&#8221; heating, one would suspect that the regional hotspot area, not the globe, was undergoing change.  If the hotspot moved around too much, one would suspect heat transference distorting the appearance.</p>
<p>As has been noted by many, the heat energy in a gram of water is larger than that of air.  The oceans are 70.1% of the area of Earth.  Should the energy in a 0.1K temperature drop in an ocean be transfered to winds moving over lands, a high cumulative energy transference will occur.  Will this distort the temperature records to make us think the world is warming?  I&#8217;d say so.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42818</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Feb 2011 05:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42818</guid>
		<description>NIWA&#039;s justification for their method from page 13 of the NIWA/BOM review report:-

&quot;it is a simple matter in principle4 to adjust temperatures from one site to the same base level as at another site&quot;

4 says this

&quot;It would be almost as simple in practice too, were it not for missing data.&quot;

So NIWA&#039;s method is based on &quot;a simple matter in principle&quot; - not on an empirical scientific study that proves the &quot;principle&quot;, note.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NIWA&#8217;s justification for their method from page 13 of the NIWA/BOM review report:-</p>
<p>&#8220;it is a simple matter in principle4 to adjust temperatures from one site to the same base level as at another site&#8221;</p>
<p>4 says this</p>
<p>&#8220;It would be almost as simple in practice too, were it not for missing data.&#8221;</p>
<p>So NIWA&#8217;s method is based on &#8220;a simple matter in principle&#8221; &#8211; not on an empirical scientific study that proves the &#8220;principle&#8221;, note.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42781</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Feb 2011 23:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42781</guid>
		<description>Of possible interest is the new temperature record project at Berkeley

http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2011/2/27/muller-in-the-guardian.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of possible interest is the new temperature record project at Berkeley</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2011/2/27/muller-in-the-guardian.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.bishop-hill.net/blog/2011/2/27/muller-in-the-guardian.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42598</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42598</guid>
		<description>The same goes for Masterton. If the reference is swapped from the East Taratahi AWS end to the Workshop Road end by adding the 0.55 C cumulative step change total to the NZT7 Masterton series, the latest East Taratahi AWS temperatures are adjusted up to be in terms of Workshop Road as follows:-

Year_Raw_Adj_Diff

1991	12.15	12.74	0.59
1992	11.2	11.75	0.55
1993	11.4	11.94	0.54
1994	12.4	12.97	0.57
1995	12.7	13.27	0.57
1996	12.3	12.88	0.58
1997	11.9	12.48	0.58
1998	13.5	14.08	0.58
1999	13.1	13.63	0.53
2000	12.5	13.02	0.52
2001	12.7	13.32	0.62
2002	12.5	13.02	0.52
2003	12.5	13.09	0.59
2004	12.3	12.88	0.58
2005	13.0	13.58	0.58
2006	12.4	12.96	0.56
2007	12.6	13.19	0.59
2008	12.9	13.45	0.55

So within the same Masterton location, the original site was (and hopefully still is) on average 0.55 C warmer than the latest open site using NIWA&#039;s cumulative step change method (not taking into account any warming 1919-1991).

The adjustment could be checked with a temporary station at Workshop Rd to take a years data. The two sites are separated by approx 8 km.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The same goes for Masterton. If the reference is swapped from the East Taratahi AWS end to the Workshop Road end by adding the 0.55 C cumulative step change total to the NZT7 Masterton series, the latest East Taratahi AWS temperatures are adjusted up to be in terms of Workshop Road as follows:-</p>
<p>Year_Raw_Adj_Diff</p>
<p>1991	12.15	12.74	0.59<br />
1992	11.2	11.75	0.55<br />
1993	11.4	11.94	0.54<br />
1994	12.4	12.97	0.57<br />
1995	12.7	13.27	0.57<br />
1996	12.3	12.88	0.58<br />
1997	11.9	12.48	0.58<br />
1998	13.5	14.08	0.58<br />
1999	13.1	13.63	0.53<br />
2000	12.5	13.02	0.52<br />
2001	12.7	13.32	0.62<br />
2002	12.5	13.02	0.52<br />
2003	12.5	13.09	0.59<br />
2004	12.3	12.88	0.58<br />
2005	13.0	13.58	0.58<br />
2006	12.4	12.96	0.56<br />
2007	12.6	13.19	0.59<br />
2008	12.9	13.45	0.55</p>
<p>So within the same Masterton location, the original site was (and hopefully still is) on average 0.55 C warmer than the latest open site using NIWA&#8217;s cumulative step change method (not taking into account any warming 1919-1991).</p>
<p>The adjustment could be checked with a temporary station at Workshop Rd to take a years data. The two sites are separated by approx 8 km.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42565</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42565</guid>
		<description>Oops, the cumulative step total is 0.62, not 0.66.

So every year on average, the temperatures at Albert Park are 0.62 C warmer than Mangere treatment plant if we accept NIWA&#039;s cumulative step change method for the NZT7.

Believe it or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, the cumulative step total is 0.62, not 0.66.</p>
<p>So every year on average, the temperatures at Albert Park are 0.62 C warmer than Mangere treatment plant if we accept NIWA&#8217;s cumulative step change method for the NZT7.</p>
<p>Believe it or not.</p>
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		<title>By: outtheback</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42542</link>
		<dc:creator>outtheback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:42:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42542</guid>
		<description>The only reason to keep the temperature comparisons on a global level is that it is almost impossible for the average punter to check. Make it regional or smaller still by general climate area within a country and the believers will be drowned out by all those who check the temperature daily for their own purposes, either hobby or work, and can easily see that it has not changed for them. It would blow the myth  out of the water in no time. Not quite what politicians and others have in mind. No matter what the real intentions are/were, support for the myth would never eventuate. In business it goes like this: if you don&#039;t know the numbers, you can&#039;t control it. That is exactly what they try to do here, the public at large can not check the global data so they can never be in control. A politicians dream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only reason to keep the temperature comparisons on a global level is that it is almost impossible for the average punter to check. Make it regional or smaller still by general climate area within a country and the believers will be drowned out by all those who check the temperature daily for their own purposes, either hobby or work, and can easily see that it has not changed for them. It would blow the myth  out of the water in no time. Not quite what politicians and others have in mind. No matter what the real intentions are/were, support for the myth would never eventuate. In business it goes like this: if you don&#8217;t know the numbers, you can&#8217;t control it. That is exactly what they try to do here, the public at large can not check the global data so they can never be in control. A politicians dream.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42504</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Feb 2011 06:52:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42504</guid>
		<description>Something to think about.

CCG regulars will be used to seeing the early NZT7 data adjusted down, but what happens when the reference is swapped from the 2010 end to the 1910 end?

This is what happens to the Auckland series

_______Raw___Adjusted
2002	15.4	16.05
2003	15.5	16.09
2004	14.9	15.55
2005	16.1	16.69
2006	15.3	15.91
2007	15.6	16.26
2008	15.7	16.33
2009	15.1	15.76

These raw temperatures were measured at Mangere treatment plant but are adjusted to be in terms of Albert Park by reversing the sign of NIWA&#039;s cumulative step change total and adding it to the entire series..

The adjusted temperatures could be checked by setting up a temporary station at the same spot as the original Albert Park station and taking a years measurements. The same could be done where sensible for every other location of the NZT7.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something to think about.</p>
<p>CCG regulars will be used to seeing the early NZT7 data adjusted down, but what happens when the reference is swapped from the 2010 end to the 1910 end?</p>
<p>This is what happens to the Auckland series</p>
<p>_______Raw___Adjusted<br />
2002	15.4	16.05<br />
2003	15.5	16.09<br />
2004	14.9	15.55<br />
2005	16.1	16.69<br />
2006	15.3	15.91<br />
2007	15.6	16.26<br />
2008	15.7	16.33<br />
2009	15.1	15.76</p>
<p>These raw temperatures were measured at Mangere treatment plant but are adjusted to be in terms of Albert Park by reversing the sign of NIWA&#8217;s cumulative step change total and adding it to the entire series..</p>
<p>The adjusted temperatures could be checked by setting up a temporary station at the same spot as the original Albert Park station and taking a years measurements. The same could be done where sensible for every other location of the NZT7.</p>
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		<title>By: QuentinF</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/02/the-uncertainties-of-averages/comment-page-1/#comment-42465</link>
		<dc:creator>QuentinF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=9001#comment-42465</guid>
		<description>Gerlich et all state categorically &quot;There are no calculations to determine an average surface temperature of a planet&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerlich et all state categorically &#8220;There are no calculations to determine an average surface temperature of a planet&#8221;.</p>
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