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	<title>Comments on: Arctic ice definitely melting</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: Roger</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61741</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61741</guid>
		<description>Go have a look at  &lt;a href=&quot;http://rankexploits.com/musings/2011/the-commissioner-speaks-english-highlights/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lucia&#039;s site&lt;/a&gt;where she does a good analysis of the FOI Commissioner&#039;s thumping of the UEA&#039;s refusal to part with data on basis it infringes intellectual proprty rights. This resonates with NIWA&#039;s reluctance to part with Salinger&#039;s data. I suspect the arguments the C FOI uses to force UEA to &#039;fess up are the same ones that could apply in NZ. 

    99. [...] UEA’s arguments have presented arguments about infringement to intellectual property rights but no convincing evidence has been supplied about the actual affect on the rights holders e.g. impact on the ability to derive value or exploit their intellectual property or other impacts of the loss of control.

    100. The Commissioner is in the position of having to carry out a highly speculative exercise as to the potential impact of disclosure. On the basis of the evidence and arguments supplied by UEA he is not satisfied it is more probable than not that disclosure would adversely affect the intellectual property rights of the NMSs and other bodies that supplied information.

    101. UEA also argued that disclosure would have adversely affected its own intellectual property rights because it would lose control of the wider dissemination of the withheld informaiton and as a result lose any right of commercial exploitation of the data sets.

    102. However, the Commissioner notes that the request was not for a copy of UEA’s current data set but for the datasets that contained temperature data up to November 2008. That particular datasets that were requested were therefor nearly a year old at the time of the request. In addition, the data sets only related to a limited part of the world, covering the latitude zones 30N to 40S, rather being for datasets held by UEA that covered the whole world.

    103. The Commissioner also takes note of the fact that UEW has informed him that 85.5% of the information in the withheld data set as already available on the GHCN website. In addition, for the 11.8% of the data in UEA’s database there was comparable but different data on the GHCN website. Only in respect to 2.7% of the data contained in UEA’s data sets was there no comparable data on the GHCN website.

    104. Given all of the above, it is not clear to the Commissioner how UEA might have planned to commercially exploit the specific information requested and how disclosures might have impacted on any plans that it might have developed or been in the process of developing. He is consequently not satisfied it is more probable than not that disclosure would adversely affect its intellectual property rights. He has therefore determined that regulation 12(5)(c) is not engaged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go have a look at  <a href="http://rankexploits.com/musings/2011/the-commissioner-speaks-english-highlights/" rel="nofollow">Lucia&#8217;s site</a>where she does a good analysis of the FOI Commissioner&#8217;s thumping of the UEA&#8217;s refusal to part with data on basis it infringes intellectual proprty rights. This resonates with NIWA&#8217;s reluctance to part with Salinger&#8217;s data. I suspect the arguments the C FOI uses to force UEA to &#8216;fess up are the same ones that could apply in NZ. </p>
<p>    99. [...] UEA’s arguments have presented arguments about infringement to intellectual property rights but no convincing evidence has been supplied about the actual affect on the rights holders e.g. impact on the ability to derive value or exploit their intellectual property or other impacts of the loss of control.</p>
<p>    100. The Commissioner is in the position of having to carry out a highly speculative exercise as to the potential impact of disclosure. On the basis of the evidence and arguments supplied by UEA he is not satisfied it is more probable than not that disclosure would adversely affect the intellectual property rights of the NMSs and other bodies that supplied information.</p>
<p>    101. UEA also argued that disclosure would have adversely affected its own intellectual property rights because it would lose control of the wider dissemination of the withheld informaiton and as a result lose any right of commercial exploitation of the data sets.</p>
<p>    102. However, the Commissioner notes that the request was not for a copy of UEA’s current data set but for the datasets that contained temperature data up to November 2008. That particular datasets that were requested were therefor nearly a year old at the time of the request. In addition, the data sets only related to a limited part of the world, covering the latitude zones 30N to 40S, rather being for datasets held by UEA that covered the whole world.</p>
<p>    103. The Commissioner also takes note of the fact that UEW has informed him that 85.5% of the information in the withheld data set as already available on the GHCN website. In addition, for the 11.8% of the data in UEA’s database there was comparable but different data on the GHCN website. Only in respect to 2.7% of the data contained in UEA’s data sets was there no comparable data on the GHCN website.</p>
<p>    104. Given all of the above, it is not clear to the Commissioner how UEA might have planned to commercially exploit the specific information requested and how disclosures might have impacted on any plans that it might have developed or been in the process of developing. He is consequently not satisfied it is more probable than not that disclosure would adversely affect its intellectual property rights. He has therefore determined that regulation 12(5)(c) is not engaged.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander K</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61632</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Jun 2011 07:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61632</guid>
		<description>When I was a teenager, I joined the local Boys&#039; Brigade, mostly to have a whack at playing side drum in their marching band and drum corp.  The group was attached to a Protestant church of American origin; attending Church Parade was not optional.  My first Church Parade went okay until we got to the sermon and the minister, who suffered an unfortunate muscular tic in one eye, began winking at me while shouting about all the things that would lead us straight to Hell and Eternal Damnation.  Man. I was scared! 
The following week I handed in my drum and Glengarry cap and left the Boys Brigade for ever.
Why do alarmist tales from CAGW catastrophists remind me of those long-gone days?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was a teenager, I joined the local Boys&#8217; Brigade, mostly to have a whack at playing side drum in their marching band and drum corp.  The group was attached to a Protestant church of American origin; attending Church Parade was not optional.  My first Church Parade went okay until we got to the sermon and the minister, who suffered an unfortunate muscular tic in one eye, began winking at me while shouting about all the things that would lead us straight to Hell and Eternal Damnation.  Man. I was scared!<br />
The following week I handed in my drum and Glengarry cap and left the Boys Brigade for ever.<br />
Why do alarmist tales from CAGW catastrophists remind me of those long-gone days?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61593</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 21:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61593</guid>
		<description>Another doomsday prediction of yore springs to mind: the horse manure problem.

&lt;em&gt;In 1894, the Times of London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet deep in horse manure. One New York prognosticator of the 1890s concluded that by 1930 the horse droppings would rise to Manhattan’s third-story windows.&lt;/em&gt;

http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/03/29/the-horse-manure-problem/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another doomsday prediction of yore springs to mind: the horse manure problem.</p>
<p><em>In 1894, the Times of London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet deep in horse manure. One New York prognosticator of the 1890s concluded that by 1930 the horse droppings would rise to Manhattan’s third-story windows.</em></p>
<p><a href="http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/03/29/the-horse-manure-problem/" rel="nofollow">http://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/03/29/the-horse-manure-problem/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gary Kerkin</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61592</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Kerkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 20:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61592</guid>
		<description>Goes hand in hand with the popular predictions in the 1970&#039;s that we were about to descend into an ice age.

The moral? There will always be alarmists seeking headlines, often accompanied by the catch phrase &quot;we need to undertake more research&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goes hand in hand with the popular predictions in the 1970&#8242;s that we were about to descend into an ice age.</p>
<p>The moral? There will always be alarmists seeking headlines, often accompanied by the catch phrase &#8220;we need to undertake more research&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61556</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 05:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61556</guid>
		<description>I think Richard Lindzen made similar observations in his Heartland keynote speech</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Richard Lindzen made similar observations in his Heartland keynote speech</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Fraser</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61551</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Fraser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 04:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61551</guid>
		<description>Very Droll</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very Droll</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Treadgold</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61547</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Treadgold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 03:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61547</guid>
		<description>It came to me from Keith Hancox. Thanks for asking: I forgot the hat tip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It came to me from Keith Hancox. Thanks for asking: I forgot the hat tip.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Jowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61543</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Jowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jun 2011 02:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61543</guid>
		<description>Lmto!  You got me there with the fine print. Where did you find this wee gem?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lmto!  You got me there with the fine print. Where did you find this wee gem?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61539</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jun 2011 23:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61539</guid>
		<description>Looks like a &quot;precedent&quot; to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like a &#8220;precedent&#8221; to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/06/arctic-ice-definitely-melting/comment-page-1/#comment-61537</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jun 2011 22:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10380#comment-61537</guid>
		<description>Amazing that they were thinking that sea ice melting causes sea level rise, even back then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing that they were thinking that sea ice melting causes sea level rise, even back then.</p>
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