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	<title>Comments on: Climate science learns more &#8212; not settled at all</title>
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	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: Jim McK</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62830</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim McK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:00:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62830</guid>
		<description>Thanks Mike - best thing I have read for ages.  The warmists C12/C13 arguement has to be kicked for touch for ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Mike &#8211; best thing I have read for ages.  The warmists C12/C13 arguement has to be kicked for touch for ever.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62799</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jul 2011 00:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62799</guid>
		<description>On the subject of Al Gore&#039;s Climate (altered) reality project, Shub has posted up an article referencing an &quot;Alex Bogusky&quot; who is a PR person working on this project

http://nigguraths.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/the-pattern-in-the-climate-vultures-methods/

I thought A Bogusky was a such a great name!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the subject of Al Gore&#8217;s Climate (altered) reality project, Shub has posted up an article referencing an &#8220;Alex Bogusky&#8221; who is a PR person working on this project</p>
<p><a href="http://nigguraths.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/the-pattern-in-the-climate-vultures-methods/" rel="nofollow">http://nigguraths.wordpress.com/2011/07/14/the-pattern-in-the-climate-vultures-methods/</a></p>
<p>I thought A Bogusky was a such a great name!</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Jowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62780</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Jowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 20:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62780</guid>
		<description>There is a good article by E. Smith on C12 / C13 ratios and how complex the issues are in identifying the anthropogenic component of atmospheric CO2.  It&#039;s worth a read. Note, the source article referred to, by Alexander Cockburn, is behind a paywall.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Perhaps even more significant, cold ocean waters absorb lightweight C12 preferentially, resulting in lots of C13-deficient carbon in the oceans. This low-C13 carbon most certainly would have been released massively into the atmosphere over the course of the world’s warming trend since 1850, when the Little Ice Age ended.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/the-trouble-with-c12-c13-ratios/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a good article by E. Smith on C12 / C13 ratios and how complex the issues are in identifying the anthropogenic component of atmospheric CO2.  It&#8217;s worth a read. Note, the source article referred to, by Alexander Cockburn, is behind a paywall.</p>
<blockquote><p><i>Perhaps even more significant, cold ocean waters absorb lightweight C12 preferentially, resulting in lots of C13-deficient carbon in the oceans. This low-C13 carbon most certainly would have been released massively into the atmosphere over the course of the world’s warming trend since 1850, when the Little Ice Age ended.</i></p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/the-trouble-with-c12-c13-ratios/" rel="nofollow">http://chiefio.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/the-trouble-with-c12-c13-ratios/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62749</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:51:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62749</guid>
		<description>Hi RT, Andy is right. My point is that the rise in global CO2 is caused by anthropomorphic addition of carbon (previously locked up as fossil fuels) to the atmosphere. As far as I know the total number of oxygen atoms in the atmosphere is unchanged.

Interestingly while I had been thinking that maybe Galen had been sloppy (after your initial comments) on reflection I think maybe she had it right. The increase in CO2 is directly caused by the release of carbon so to talk about carbon accumulating in the atmosphere is correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi RT, Andy is right. My point is that the rise in global CO2 is caused by anthropomorphic addition of carbon (previously locked up as fossil fuels) to the atmosphere. As far as I know the total number of oxygen atoms in the atmosphere is unchanged.</p>
<p>Interestingly while I had been thinking that maybe Galen had been sloppy (after your initial comments) on reflection I think maybe she had it right. The increase in CO2 is directly caused by the release of carbon so to talk about carbon accumulating in the atmosphere is correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62740</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 07:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62740</guid>
		<description>I think the issue that Nick refers to is the isotopic ratio of C13/C12 that supposedly proves that the increase in CO2 over the last century is caused by the burning of fossil fuels

This article on RealClimate gives some background

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/how-do-we-know-that-recent-cosub2sub-increases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/

I have read a few times that this issue is not quite as &quot;settled&quot; as we might believe (sorry no references at this stage) However,  I think it is still possible to fully accept that recent CO2 increases are all due to human fossil fuel burning, and still come to the conclusion that any effects will be small and benign, rather than dangerous or catastrophic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the issue that Nick refers to is the isotopic ratio of C13/C12 that supposedly proves that the increase in CO2 over the last century is caused by the burning of fossil fuels</p>
<p>This article on RealClimate gives some background</p>
<p><a href="http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/how-do-we-know-that-recent-cosub2sub-increases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/" rel="nofollow">http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/how-do-we-know-that-recent-cosub2sub-increases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/</a></p>
<p>I have read a few times that this issue is not quite as &#8220;settled&#8221; as we might believe (sorry no references at this stage) However,  I think it is still possible to fully accept that recent CO2 increases are all due to human fossil fuel burning, and still come to the conclusion that any effects will be small and benign, rather than dangerous or catastrophic.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Treadgold</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62732</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Treadgold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 06:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62732</guid>
		<description>Nick,

Your question misses the point. The compound considered to cause global warming is carbon dioxide, or CO2. My point is that you could refer to it as oxygen with equal logic. After all, in CO2 there&#039;s more oxygen than carbon &#8212; in fact, twice as much! But carbon is black, we&#039;re familiar with soot and smoke as dirty stuff so it&#039;s an easier sell.

Do I believe the fossil fuel thing? It seems believable, although there are large margins of error. Also, there is no evidence that CO2 is responsible for all the recorded warming. That, to me, is the important fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick,</p>
<p>Your question misses the point. The compound considered to cause global warming is carbon dioxide, or CO2. My point is that you could refer to it as oxygen with equal logic. After all, in CO2 there&#8217;s more oxygen than carbon &mdash; in fact, twice as much! But carbon is black, we&#8217;re familiar with soot and smoke as dirty stuff so it&#8217;s an easier sell.</p>
<p>Do I believe the fossil fuel thing? It seems believable, although there are large margins of error. Also, there is no evidence that CO2 is responsible for all the recorded warming. That, to me, is the important fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim McK</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62730</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim McK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 04:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62730</guid>
		<description>I have just scanned the document and I don’t think it is worthy of much more than a scan. McKinley et al have garnered together a massive number of observations and managed to come out with no sustainable conclusions.  The basis of the paper seems to be that if you pull enough seemingly related data together you must learn something. They haven’t.  The focus on analysing the atmospheric and oceanic partial pressures of CO2 in and over the Northern Atlantic looking for sinks and vents and thereby implying some global implication seems particularly futile and insular.  

Someone should have told her that the scale of the sink in the Southern Oceans and the venting in the Tropical Pacific swamp all other atmospheric/oceanic exchanges of CO2 and that CO2 mixes rapidly in the atmosphere</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have just scanned the document and I don’t think it is worthy of much more than a scan. McKinley et al have garnered together a massive number of observations and managed to come out with no sustainable conclusions.  The basis of the paper seems to be that if you pull enough seemingly related data together you must learn something. They haven’t.  The focus on analysing the atmospheric and oceanic partial pressures of CO2 in and over the Northern Atlantic looking for sinks and vents and thereby implying some global implication seems particularly futile and insular.  </p>
<p>Someone should have told her that the scale of the sink in the Southern Oceans and the venting in the Tropical Pacific swamp all other atmospheric/oceanic exchanges of CO2 and that CO2 mixes rapidly in the atmosphere</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62718</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62718</guid>
		<description>RT, you say &quot;For some reason, those who champion an anthropogenic cause have chosen to demonise the element carbon because it symbolises the oils we burn in our engines&quot;

Just to be clear do you believe that the increased global CO2 levels are due to burning fossil fuels? I had thought that the anthropogenic isotopic signature of carbon proved it but if you have an alternative theory I would be interested to hear it, or at least have a look at the peer reviewed source.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RT, you say &#8220;For some reason, those who champion an anthropogenic cause have chosen to demonise the element carbon because it symbolises the oils we burn in our engines&#8221;</p>
<p>Just to be clear do you believe that the increased global CO2 levels are due to burning fossil fuels? I had thought that the anthropogenic isotopic signature of carbon proved it but if you have an alternative theory I would be interested to hear it, or at least have a look at the peer reviewed source.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander K</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62685</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 14:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62685</guid>
		<description>The mention of Oliver K Manuel and Al Gore are, each in their own way, enough to make the serious reader about climate science&#039;s eyes close from sheer mental weariness.  Both are Olympian bores, but Dr Manuel is actually a highly-credentialled scientist who has held some senior and interesting positions, while  Al Gore is...in an interesting position, to be polite.  I have seen American eyes open and shine with religious fervour at the mention of the former VeeP.   As they say over there in the US of A, &#039;Go figger!&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mention of Oliver K Manuel and Al Gore are, each in their own way, enough to make the serious reader about climate science&#8217;s eyes close from sheer mental weariness.  Both are Olympian bores, but Dr Manuel is actually a highly-credentialled scientist who has held some senior and interesting positions, while  Al Gore is&#8230;in an interesting position, to be polite.  I have seen American eyes open and shine with religious fervour at the mention of the former VeeP.   As they say over there in the US of A, &#8216;Go figger!&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/07/climate-science-learns-more-not-settled-at-all/comment-page-1/#comment-62665</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 03:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=10570#comment-62665</guid>
		<description>One of the other authors of &quot;Sky Dragons&quot; is Swedish mathematician Claes Johnson.

Dr Johnson has written quite extensively on his theories of the greenhouse effect that are at odds with the &quot;consensus&quot;. 

For example, here:
http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/4/18/claes-johnson-on-agw-postulates.html

What I find quite insidious is that Johnson was banned from teaching courses in finite element modelling at his university, because of his scientific views. I cannot condone this kind of behaviour at all. It smacks of something out of 1930&#039;s Germany.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the other authors of &#8220;Sky Dragons&#8221; is Swedish mathematician Claes Johnson.</p>
<p>Dr Johnson has written quite extensively on his theories of the greenhouse effect that are at odds with the &#8220;consensus&#8221;. </p>
<p>For example, here:<br />
<a href="http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/4/18/claes-johnson-on-agw-postulates.html" rel="nofollow">http://bishophill.squarespace.com/blog/2010/4/18/claes-johnson-on-agw-postulates.html</a></p>
<p>What I find quite insidious is that Johnson was banned from teaching courses in finite element modelling at his university, because of his scientific views. I cannot condone this kind of behaviour at all. It smacks of something out of 1930&#8242;s Germany.</p>
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