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	<title>Comments on: Liquid fossil fuels and climate change</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68421</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Oct 2011 00:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68421</guid>
		<description>Where carbon trading fits in to The Climate Change Scare Machine

See - Financial houses
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&lt;strong&gt;Map: The Climate Change Scare Machine — the perpetual self-feeding cycle of alarm&lt;/strong&gt;

Climate Change Scare Machine Cycle: see how your tax dollars are converted into alarming messages

http://joannenova.com.au/2011/10/map-the-climate-change-scare-machine-the-perpetual-self-feeding-cycle-of-alarm/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where carbon trading fits in to The Climate Change Scare Machine</p>
<p>See &#8211; Financial houses<br />
*******************************************************************************************************<br />
<strong>Map: The Climate Change Scare Machine — the perpetual self-feeding cycle of alarm</strong></p>
<p>Climate Change Scare Machine Cycle: see how your tax dollars are converted into alarming messages</p>
<p><a href="http://joannenova.com.au/2011/10/map-the-climate-change-scare-machine-the-perpetual-self-feeding-cycle-of-alarm/" rel="nofollow">http://joannenova.com.au/2011/10/map-the-climate-change-scare-machine-the-perpetual-self-feeding-cycle-of-alarm/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68384</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Oct 2011 07:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68384</guid>
		<description>Where is the rent a demo mob from greenpeace and the green party?? They are very quiet on something that they should be making some noise on!! It can be assumed this is the world they want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where is the rent a demo mob from greenpeace and the green party?? They are very quiet on something that they should be making some noise on!! It can be assumed this is the world they want.</p>
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		<title>By: C E Kay</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68307</link>
		<dc:creator>C E Kay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 00:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68307</guid>
		<description>There is now no prospect that Japan, South Korea or USA will introduce national ETS regimes. Yesterday, I heard an insider (warmist) claim that there was no way Australia&#039;s carbon tax would convert to an ETS in 2016.

Back in 2004, the shiny new EU ETS was applauded as the pathfinder for schemes that would spring up all over the globe. What happened was that NZ was the sole new ETS during the succeeding seven years.

Administratively, the EU scheme has been plagued by endless frauds and scandals, while carbon pricing has been hopelessly volatile. And the scheme makes no claim to have actually assisted the environment in any measurable way.

Politically, the US Cap &#039;n Trade scheme proved so unsaleable that it has disappeared from the radar. The world has watched the Gillard government&#039;s ratings drop to unprecedented lows as she campaigns for a carbon tax. Rudd and Turnbull are evidence that ETS can be a political third rail.

The Kyoto commitments are expiring. The EU has decided not to adopt a more ambitious target. There are very low expectations for the Durban COP17.

Carbon trading is an idea whose time has passed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is now no prospect that Japan, South Korea or USA will introduce national ETS regimes. Yesterday, I heard an insider (warmist) claim that there was no way Australia&#8217;s carbon tax would convert to an ETS in 2016.</p>
<p>Back in 2004, the shiny new EU ETS was applauded as the pathfinder for schemes that would spring up all over the globe. What happened was that NZ was the sole new ETS during the succeeding seven years.</p>
<p>Administratively, the EU scheme has been plagued by endless frauds and scandals, while carbon pricing has been hopelessly volatile. And the scheme makes no claim to have actually assisted the environment in any measurable way.</p>
<p>Politically, the US Cap &#8216;n Trade scheme proved so unsaleable that it has disappeared from the radar. The world has watched the Gillard government&#8217;s ratings drop to unprecedented lows as she campaigns for a carbon tax. Rudd and Turnbull are evidence that ETS can be a political third rail.</p>
<p>The Kyoto commitments are expiring. The EU has decided not to adopt a more ambitious target. There are very low expectations for the Durban COP17.</p>
<p>Carbon trading is an idea whose time has passed.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68296</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 20:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68296</guid>
		<description>Mike,
We can possibly differentiate between AGW and carbon trading. They are not the same thing: one justifies the other.

Whether the AGW theory  is correct or not, we have created a policy response that is based on trading a &quot;commodity&quot; that is thin air. 

We have seen Al Gore&#039;s CCX carbon exchange shut its doors. We have seen wild fluctuations in carbon prices globally.
We have seen emitters in NZ buying offshore credits rather than invest in NZ forests. 
We have seen numerous scams and fraud.

My understanding of the ETS is that we would eventually move to a market-driven price for CO2, rather than the fixed price of $25. In my communications with the government on this, I got no clarification on which price index this would be based on. I got the impression they didn&#039;t know.

This has all the feel of an economic train wreck to me. The climate will continue to do its thing, with or without our help, but markets built on untraceable, un-auditable (mostly) and invisible substances don&#039;t sound too smart to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,<br />
We can possibly differentiate between AGW and carbon trading. They are not the same thing: one justifies the other.</p>
<p>Whether the AGW theory  is correct or not, we have created a policy response that is based on trading a &#8220;commodity&#8221; that is thin air. </p>
<p>We have seen Al Gore&#8217;s CCX carbon exchange shut its doors. We have seen wild fluctuations in carbon prices globally.<br />
We have seen emitters in NZ buying offshore credits rather than invest in NZ forests.<br />
We have seen numerous scams and fraud.</p>
<p>My understanding of the ETS is that we would eventually move to a market-driven price for CO2, rather than the fixed price of $25. In my communications with the government on this, I got no clarification on which price index this would be based on. I got the impression they didn&#8217;t know.</p>
<p>This has all the feel of an economic train wreck to me. The climate will continue to do its thing, with or without our help, but markets built on untraceable, un-auditable (mostly) and invisible substances don&#8217;t sound too smart to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Jowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68292</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Jowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 19:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68292</guid>
		<description>Andy, we are in agreement about what might happen (not the pollies saying sorry - that was pure satire).  It&#039;s just I don&#039;t see it happening any time soon.  Let&#039;s hope your view of an imminent crash of the flying AGW monster (not the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.venganza.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;flying spaghetti monster&lt;/a&gt;) is realised asap.  We live in interesting times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy, we are in agreement about what might happen (not the pollies saying sorry &#8211; that was pure satire).  It&#8217;s just I don&#8217;t see it happening any time soon.  Let&#8217;s hope your view of an imminent crash of the flying AGW monster (not the <a href="http://www.venganza.org/" rel="nofollow">flying spaghetti monster</a>) is realised asap.  We live in interesting times.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68290</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 19:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68290</guid>
		<description>Reply to Mike - 
I haven&#039;t been called optimistic for a while!

I am not really anticipating a bunch of politicians apologising or whatever. What I am anticipating is a population that has no food or power, that takes to the streets and ritually slaughters anyone involved in government.

Look at Greece. They need armed guards around parliament to protect the politicians from the people.

This is what we need in NZ. Not a bunch of Listener readers who think that handing bucketloads of dosh to the Chinese to manufacture chemicals is good for our &quot;clean green image&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reply to Mike &#8211;<br />
I haven&#8217;t been called optimistic for a while!</p>
<p>I am not really anticipating a bunch of politicians apologising or whatever. What I am anticipating is a population that has no food or power, that takes to the streets and ritually slaughters anyone involved in government.</p>
<p>Look at Greece. They need armed guards around parliament to protect the politicians from the people.</p>
<p>This is what we need in NZ. Not a bunch of Listener readers who think that handing bucketloads of dosh to the Chinese to manufacture chemicals is good for our &#8220;clean green image&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Jowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68289</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Jowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68289</guid>
		<description>Replying to Andy - 

PeterM quoted the following:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;there is a potential market of 140 million tonnes a year,” he said.
“And if Australia, Korea and Japan go ahead with their ETS schemes, there’s the potential for an Asia/Pacific price on carbon, which opens the market up to a lot of potential.”&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are plenty of interested big-money rent seekers around the world greedily contemplating the opportunities.  Not just the EU.

But, hey - I love your optimism - here&#039;s hoping it will all coming crashing down within a couple of years and the politicians will all in one united voice say, &quot;Sorry we pushed an agenda to feather our own nests and force our constituents to pay more for less and become an uncompetitive banana republic.  Real sorry about that.  We were misinformed by the scientific community which we funded with your tax dollars to go find the AGW monster under every rock and in every corner of the sky.  Real sorry about that.  We should all resign....&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Replying to Andy &#8211; </p>
<p>PeterM quoted the following:</p>
<blockquote><p><i>there is a potential market of 140 million tonnes a year,” he said.<br />
“And if Australia, Korea and Japan go ahead with their ETS schemes, there’s the potential for an Asia/Pacific price on carbon, which opens the market up to a lot of potential.”</i></p></blockquote>
<p>There are plenty of interested big-money rent seekers around the world greedily contemplating the opportunities.  Not just the EU.</p>
<p>But, hey &#8211; I love your optimism &#8211; here&#8217;s hoping it will all coming crashing down within a couple of years and the politicians will all in one united voice say, &#8220;Sorry we pushed an agenda to feather our own nests and force our constituents to pay more for less and become an uncompetitive banana republic.  Real sorry about that.  We were misinformed by the scientific community which we funded with your tax dollars to go find the AGW monster under every rock and in every corner of the sky.  Real sorry about that.  We should all resign&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68287</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68287</guid>
		<description>Replying to Mike - 
The question is, do you think the EU will outlive you?
I would say the Euro is on its last legs (mind you, the same people that have been saying that about the Euro have been saying the same about AGW)

If the Euro collapses, as many financial commenters have predicted, then the EU will, eventually follow.

The AGW gravy train is predominantly EU driven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Replying to Mike &#8211;<br />
The question is, do you think the EU will outlive you?<br />
I would say the Euro is on its last legs (mind you, the same people that have been saying that about the Euro have been saying the same about AGW)</p>
<p>If the Euro collapses, as many financial commenters have predicted, then the EU will, eventually follow.</p>
<p>The AGW gravy train is predominantly EU driven.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Jowsey</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68286</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Jowsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68286</guid>
		<description>Andy,
The differences to the Dotcom bubble (which easily spring to mind) are:
CAGW has been building for 30 years or more;
CAGW is being driven by government, with legislation and bulk research funding;
CAGW is not just for geeks.

So, I don&#039;t see it as a bubble which will burst, so much as an over-inflated truck tyre inner tube which has several hundred needle holes in it, yet it is kept inflated by governments, the UN, researchers and financiers like OMFinancial. 

We just gotta keep poking holes in it whenever we get the chance.  I believe this scam will outlive me.  When Climategate broke, I remember a friend saying to me at a neighbour&#039;s BBQ, &quot;The wheels have fallen off now - it&#039;s all over isn&#039;t it?&quot;  My response was, &quot;I wish it was that simple&quot;.  The apathy of the general public will ensure its survival for decades, imho.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy,<br />
The differences to the Dotcom bubble (which easily spring to mind) are:<br />
CAGW has been building for 30 years or more;<br />
CAGW is being driven by government, with legislation and bulk research funding;<br />
CAGW is not just for geeks.</p>
<p>So, I don&#8217;t see it as a bubble which will burst, so much as an over-inflated truck tyre inner tube which has several hundred needle holes in it, yet it is kept inflated by governments, the UN, researchers and financiers like OMFinancial. </p>
<p>We just gotta keep poking holes in it whenever we get the chance.  I believe this scam will outlive me.  When Climategate broke, I remember a friend saying to me at a neighbour&#8217;s BBQ, &#8220;The wheels have fallen off now &#8211; it&#8217;s all over isn&#8217;t it?&#8221;  My response was, &#8220;I wish it was that simple&#8221;.  The apathy of the general public will ensure its survival for decades, imho.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/10/liquid-fossil-fuels-and-climate-change/comment-page-1/#comment-68284</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 18:22:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=11655#comment-68284</guid>
		<description>Just over a decade ago we had the dotcom bubble (which I was part of as an employee). 
People were busily writing books such as &quot;New Rules for the New Economy&quot;, and I was told that we had to pay customers to come to our website rather than the other way around, as it was the &quot;new way&quot;.

I, of course, was sceptical, and rightly so, as we saw the whole thing collapse in 2001. 

Now, a decade later, we are told that we can trade thin air, it will make us all (well some of us) rich, and it is the &quot;new way&quot;. 

And my reaction is what, do you imagine?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just over a decade ago we had the dotcom bubble (which I was part of as an employee).<br />
People were busily writing books such as &#8220;New Rules for the New Economy&#8221;, and I was told that we had to pay customers to come to our website rather than the other way around, as it was the &#8220;new way&#8221;.</p>
<p>I, of course, was sceptical, and rightly so, as we saw the whole thing collapse in 2001. </p>
<p>Now, a decade later, we are told that we can trade thin air, it will make us all (well some of us) rich, and it is the &#8220;new way&#8221;. </p>
<p>And my reaction is what, do you imagine?</p>
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