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	<title>Comments on: Brash trash of ETS</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/</link>
	<description>Taking the heat out of global warming</description>
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		<title>By: Richard Treadgold</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72600</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Treadgold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Dec 2011 20:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72600</guid>
		<description>Richard C and Andy,

Hey, thanks guys. I&#039;ve just taken time to check out these comments of yours pointing out Laking&#039;s attack on us. Barry just drew my attention to it as well. I&#039;m a bit miffed and I&#039;m doing something about it. The oncologist is clearly taking less care over his religious beliefs than over his profession.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard C and Andy,</p>
<p>Hey, thanks guys. I&#8217;ve just taken time to check out these comments of yours pointing out Laking&#8217;s attack on us. Barry just drew my attention to it as well. I&#8217;m a bit miffed and I&#8217;m doing something about it. The oncologist is clearly taking less care over his religious beliefs than over his profession.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72353</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2011 05:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72353</guid>
		<description>Yes, Skeptical Science seems to be the world&#039;s foremost climate science authority and referral of first resort where all climate truth is magically revealed by the revered John Cook - no scepticism needed (or tolerated) and doctrine is infallible.

And no, &quot;this is not a joke&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Skeptical Science seems to be the world&#8217;s foremost climate science authority and referral of first resort where all climate truth is magically revealed by the revered John Cook &#8211; no scepticism needed (or tolerated) and doctrine is infallible.</p>
<p>And no, &#8220;this is not a joke&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72321</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72321</guid>
		<description>This was quite a funny comment from Laking on the Herald

&lt;em&gt;I don&#039;t know why the NZ Herald continues to print nonsensical opinions that have been repeatedly shown to be wrong. Please visit http:/www.skepticalscience.com/. This is not a joke&lt;/em&gt;

I love the way these guys just point you to Skeptical Science and expect you to suddenly see the light.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was quite a funny comment from Laking on the Herald</p>
<p><em>I don&#8217;t know why the NZ Herald continues to print nonsensical opinions that have been repeatedly shown to be wrong. Please visit http:/www.skepticalscience.com/. This is not a joke</em></p>
<p>I love the way these guys just point you to Skeptical Science and expect you to suddenly see the light.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72319</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 19:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72319</guid>
		<description>I did add my 2c to the Herald article, suggesting that the medical profession should stick to just that.

I fail to see how Laking&#039;s suggestions of massive emissions reductions in NZ will not cause serious harm to the health of the public. 

Sometimes, I like to use the analogy of weight loss. I may suggest to someone who is overweight that losing a bit of weight is healthy and achievable. However, if you are already scrawny, then losing 40% of your body weight will probably kill you.

NZ is that scrawny kid. We are already over 75% renewable energy, and our pasture management is amongst the best in the world. 
If we reduce our emissions by 50% in less than 10 years, as Laking suggests, we will be like that anorexic teenager who fades out of existence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did add my 2c to the Herald article, suggesting that the medical profession should stick to just that.</p>
<p>I fail to see how Laking&#8217;s suggestions of massive emissions reductions in NZ will not cause serious harm to the health of the public. </p>
<p>Sometimes, I like to use the analogy of weight loss. I may suggest to someone who is overweight that losing a bit of weight is healthy and achievable. However, if you are already scrawny, then losing 40% of your body weight will probably kill you.</p>
<p>NZ is that scrawny kid. We are already over 75% renewable energy, and our pasture management is amongst the best in the world.<br />
If we reduce our emissions by 50% in less than 10 years, as Laking suggests, we will be like that anorexic teenager who fades out of existence.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72278</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 08:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72278</guid>
		<description>Speaking of Kyoto, I see that Canada is pulling out next month

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111127/durban-south-africa-slimate-conference-setup-111127/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of Kyoto, I see that Canada is pulling out next month</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111127/durban-south-africa-slimate-conference-setup-111127/" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20111127/durban-south-africa-slimate-conference-setup-111127/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72272</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 06:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72272</guid>
		<description>I suggest a blog post (at least) titled:-

&lt;strong&gt;George Laking: Doctor and Climate Science Ignoramus&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suggest a blog post (at least) titled:-</p>
<p><strong>George Laking: Doctor and Climate Science Ignoramus</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Richard C (NZ)</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72271</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard C (NZ)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 06:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72271</guid>
		<description>Brash&#039;s mindset is obviously conditioned by the &quot;consensus&quot; that CO2 emissions from industrialized countries (e.g. his reference to China) are actually problematic. I bet he hasn&#039;t looked at plots of global CO2 fluxes to see where the major fluxes actually originate e.g NOAA surface launched or JAXA satellite. If he had and seen that it&#039;s the equatorial under-developed countries that are the largest net emitters I think his speech would contain some additional invective - somebody tell him.

I see George Laking has continued his anti-Act NZ Herald diatribe: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&amp;objectid=10766457&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Epsom and climate change&lt;/a&gt; at Hot Topic (Vidal’s voyage post):-

&lt;blockquote&gt;George November 29, 2011 at 6:22 pm

    The Lancet has an editorial on Durban. Doctors understand what’s going on — being familiar with scientific method, and the abuse of science by vested interests, and standing far enough outside the mainstream to be able to see this.
    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2811%2961793-5/fulltext&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The following was one of his later comments under his &quot;Epsom and climate change&quot; opinion piece:-

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;George Laking &lt;/strong&gt;(Devonport)
10:25 AM Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011

Borealis you don&#039;t have any effective rebuttal for the substance of the article, so you complain that there isn&#039;t enough scientific notation. You describe my opinions as &quot;unscientific&quot; and you might have a point. &lt;strong&gt;Global Warming has gone way beyond science, we are now talking about morality&lt;/strong&gt;. You and your kind have &lt;strong&gt;cynically and immorally abused science&lt;/strong&gt; to further your short term interests.

&lt;strong&gt;There is a kernel of science that everyone can look up, it is NIWA&#039;s &quot;Report on the Review of NIWA&#039;s Seven Station Series&quot; available on NIWA&#039;s website, and it shows how temperature has risen 0.9degC in this country over the last century.&lt;/strong&gt;

If you &lt;strong&gt;take the raw temperature recordings alone (like ACT, or to be precise, Richard Treadgold did), you won&#039;t see a temperature rise&lt;/strong&gt;. But that is because the readings have to be corrected for changes in site location, exposure, and instrumentation. &lt;strong&gt;My own training in science has made me alert to and familiar with the need to prepare raw data for analysis. Treadgold overlooked this and so ACT constructed a whole court case on the most abysmal scientific howler.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If Laking is the Doctor I think I would rather have the disease. Given that he&#039;s a medical oncologist: (treatment primarily with drugs, e.g. chemotherapy) not a radiation oncologist probably explains why he doesn&#039;t know squat about AGW. Pity Laking didn&#039;t pursue the radiation sub-specialty or he might have seen through the bogus backradiation heating notion.

And please Richard T (or NZCSC), acquaint this idiot with the facts of NZCSC v NIWA and the statistical audit of the NZ temperature series by NZCSC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brash&#8217;s mindset is obviously conditioned by the &#8220;consensus&#8221; that CO2 emissions from industrialized countries (e.g. his reference to China) are actually problematic. I bet he hasn&#8217;t looked at plots of global CO2 fluxes to see where the major fluxes actually originate e.g NOAA surface launched or JAXA satellite. If he had and seen that it&#8217;s the equatorial under-developed countries that are the largest net emitters I think his speech would contain some additional invective &#8211; somebody tell him.</p>
<p>I see George Laking has continued his anti-Act NZ Herald diatribe: <a href="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&amp;objectid=10766457" rel="nofollow">Epsom and climate change</a> at Hot Topic (Vidal’s voyage post):-</p>
<blockquote><p>George November 29, 2011 at 6:22 pm</p>
<p>    The Lancet has an editorial on Durban. Doctors understand what’s going on — being familiar with scientific method, and the abuse of science by vested interests, and standing far enough outside the mainstream to be able to see this.<br />
    <a href="http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2811%2961793-5/fulltext" rel="nofollow">http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2811%2961793-5/fulltext</a></p></blockquote>
<p>The following was one of his later comments under his &#8220;Epsom and climate change&#8221; opinion piece:-</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>George Laking </strong>(Devonport)<br />
10:25 AM Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011</p>
<p>Borealis you don&#8217;t have any effective rebuttal for the substance of the article, so you complain that there isn&#8217;t enough scientific notation. You describe my opinions as &#8220;unscientific&#8221; and you might have a point. <strong>Global Warming has gone way beyond science, we are now talking about morality</strong>. You and your kind have <strong>cynically and immorally abused science</strong> to further your short term interests.</p>
<p><strong>There is a kernel of science that everyone can look up, it is NIWA&#8217;s &#8220;Report on the Review of NIWA&#8217;s Seven Station Series&#8221; available on NIWA&#8217;s website, and it shows how temperature has risen 0.9degC in this country over the last century.</strong></p>
<p>If you <strong>take the raw temperature recordings alone (like ACT, or to be precise, Richard Treadgold did), you won&#8217;t see a temperature rise</strong>. But that is because the readings have to be corrected for changes in site location, exposure, and instrumentation. <strong>My own training in science has made me alert to and familiar with the need to prepare raw data for analysis. Treadgold overlooked this and so ACT constructed a whole court case on the most abysmal scientific howler.</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>If Laking is the Doctor I think I would rather have the disease. Given that he&#8217;s a medical oncologist: (treatment primarily with drugs, e.g. chemotherapy) not a radiation oncologist probably explains why he doesn&#8217;t know squat about AGW. Pity Laking didn&#8217;t pursue the radiation sub-specialty or he might have seen through the bogus backradiation heating notion.</p>
<p>And please Richard T (or NZCSC), acquaint this idiot with the facts of NZCSC v NIWA and the statistical audit of the NZ temperature series by NZCSC.</p>
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		<title>By: Australis</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72261</link>
		<dc:creator>Australis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2011 01:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72261</guid>
		<description>&quot;Costs will increase by a third in 2013, another third in 2014 and a further third in 2015. At that point, a household of four will be paying $1200 per annum – $100 each month – for the privilege of having an ETS.&quot;

He is a bit light here!

The Units to be surrendered under the ETS in 2011-12 is forecast at 23.3MT. At $25 per Unit, that amounts to $582m.

But then the vendor of electricity, petrol, oil, gas, diesel, or whatever has to add a margin. And that cost passes through transport operators, wholesalers and retailers, etc, all of whom also need a margin. The Reserve Bank calculates the &quot;first round effects&quot; at consumer level will be 1.5 times the amount paid out at energy company level.

So, the total cost to end consumers this year will be $873m. And lets not forget GST - which consumers can&#039;t draw back. That takes the after-tax cost to end consumers up to just over a billion dollars ($1,004m) in the current year.

That equates to $934 pa for a family of four.

These calculations follow Government practice of using the statutory option price of $25 per Unit, ignoring the recent crash in world carbon prices. But they also ignore the huge additional cost of the windfall profits which accrue to non-fossil-fuel electricity generators; and the cost to taxpayers of compensating beneficiaries and Working for Families recipients for the CPI increases driven by the ETS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Costs will increase by a third in 2013, another third in 2014 and a further third in 2015. At that point, a household of four will be paying $1200 per annum – $100 each month – for the privilege of having an ETS.&#8221;</p>
<p>He is a bit light here!</p>
<p>The Units to be surrendered under the ETS in 2011-12 is forecast at 23.3MT. At $25 per Unit, that amounts to $582m.</p>
<p>But then the vendor of electricity, petrol, oil, gas, diesel, or whatever has to add a margin. And that cost passes through transport operators, wholesalers and retailers, etc, all of whom also need a margin. The Reserve Bank calculates the &#8220;first round effects&#8221; at consumer level will be 1.5 times the amount paid out at energy company level.</p>
<p>So, the total cost to end consumers this year will be $873m. And lets not forget GST &#8211; which consumers can&#8217;t draw back. That takes the after-tax cost to end consumers up to just over a billion dollars ($1,004m) in the current year.</p>
<p>That equates to $934 pa for a family of four.</p>
<p>These calculations follow Government practice of using the statutory option price of $25 per Unit, ignoring the recent crash in world carbon prices. But they also ignore the huge additional cost of the windfall profits which accrue to non-fossil-fuel electricity generators; and the cost to taxpayers of compensating beneficiaries and Working for Families recipients for the CPI increases driven by the ETS.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/2011/11/brash-trash-of-ets/comment-page-1/#comment-72195</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 08:08:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.climateconversation.wordshine.co.nz/?p=12002#comment-72195</guid>
		<description>Winston Peters is against the ETS too, so I hear

I&#039;m not sure that is necessarily a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Winston Peters is against the ETS too, so I hear</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that is necessarily a good thing.</p>
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